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06 May 2017 @ 09:49 am
13 Reasons Why  
Just finished watching 13 Reasons Why
Somewhere around Tape 4 Side A.
I just could not tolerate the level of stupidity and incompetence of all key characters anymore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_Reasons_Why

Not only characters were stupid, they were inconsistently stupid: smart in some situations and stupid in others.

Obviously that show is an exaggeration of a real life, but is there any base in reality for their mistakes?

Pretty much the main mistake they all make - is severe under-communication.
Every time when it's obvious that the problem is serious and needs to be talked out - one or another character makes sure to shut up and run away.

Looking back into my real life, I see that under-communication problem actually does happen in real life. Especially with teenagers.
However in real life under-communication rarely goes to such extremes.

Originally posted at: http://dennisgorelik.dreamwidth.org/131572.html
 
 
 
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 6th, 2017 09:38 pm (UTC)
"Obviously that show is an exaggeration of a real life" - no, it is not an exaggeration.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 02:27 am (UTC)
Not an exaggeration
Let's be more specific.
Does "13 Reasons Why" exaggerate miscommunication problems between teenagers?

E.g., if there is a rumor about Hanna having sex in the park - would a typical girl be stupid enough not to explicitly address that immediately and share her version of that story?
Would typical teenager response be "I'm not going to talk about that at all"?

I see these stupid "secretive" tendencies in teenagers, but not to that degree as outlined in the movie.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 04:21 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
I am a high school teacher with 9 years of experience. I watched this movie with strange feeling that I recognize all this stuff. I don't know what else to tell you. I consider this is a great movie.
Here is a couple of links:
Suicide Rates Climb In U.S., Especially Among Adolescent Girls
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/04/22/474888854/suicide-rates-climb-in-u-s-especially-among-adolescent-girls
Is teenage bullying common?

According to statistics from Family First Aid, about 30 percent of teenagers in the U.S. have been involved in bullying, either as a bully or as a victim of teenage bullying. Data suggests that teenage bullying is more common among younger teens than it is among older teens. However, it may be that young teens are more prone to physical bullying, which is easier to identify, and that older teens are more sophisticated in methods of bullying that are not always exactly identified as such.

Physical bullying is more common among boys, and teenage girls often favor verbal and emotional bullying. Indeed, while boys report that they are more likely to be involved in physical altercations, girls report that they are often the targets of nasty rumors – especially involving sexual gossip. Additionally, girls are more likely to use exclusion as a teenage bullying technique than boys are.
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/teenage-bullying.html

Edited at 2017-05-07 04:28 am (UTC)
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 04:33 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
I asked about problems with miscommunication, but you give me statistics about bullying.

What does bullying have to do with miscommunication?
Typically bullying relies on clear communication (e.g.: "what you do is despicable"), otherwise bullying is not effective.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 04:24 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
I think that bullying is common and difficult to fight.
And I know closely about a few cases, when bullying problem was solved by transferring a bullied student to another school (but other methods would not help).
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 04:37 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
Do you imply that bullying is actually a significant reason for teenage suicides?

If yes - why do you think so?

My guess would be that mental sickness + lack of communication with others - are the main reasons for suicides. Not bullying.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 04:52 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
The statistics on bullying and suicide are alarming:

Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.
Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 06:59 am (UTC)
Re: Not an exaggeration
> Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims

1) Correlation does not imply causation.
I think much more likely explanation here is that mentally unstable people are much more likely to consider suicide and much more likely to become "bully victims".
So the "bullying -> consider suicide" causation is not proven here.

2) It is suspicious, that statistic links bullying to "consider suicide".
"Consider suicide" is, obviously, not the same as "suicide".
We are looking for the causation "bullying -> suicide".

> For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.

In other words, for every 200 "consider suicide" cases only one actual suicide happens.
Theoretically it is possible that bullying causing to consider suicide, but does not cause actual suicide.

But more importantly, how would you explain, that number of suicide growing, while bullying is getting less and less of a problem with every generation?
In the past children in schools were much meaner than they are now.
If bullying was the main reason for suicide, then suicide rate would go down, not up, right?
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on June 26th, 2017 02:40 am (UTC)
June 19, 2017, Bedford, PA
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on June 26th, 2017 04:50 am (UTC)
Re: June 19, 2017, Bedford, PA
What's your point?
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 6th, 2017 09:40 pm (UTC)
"However in real life under-communication rarely goes to such extremes." - Two teenagers died last academic year in the village where I live (one: suicide, another: stabbed in a local park because of a fight about a girl), and one was in coma after attempt of suicide.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 02:33 am (UTC)
> Two teenagers died last academic year in the village where I live

That happens.
But do

> one: suicide,

Some people are mentally sick or are in a heavy depression.
It does happen.
But if it does happen, these people are not capable of such elaborate projects such as creating ~5+ hours of coherent tapes on the subject.

> another: stabbed in a local park because of a fight about a girl

I find tensions like that more realistic.
Though I'm not sure if there was a problem of miscommunication in that case.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 04:16 am (UTC)
Mentally sick people are sometimes capable of creating of elaborate projects.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 04:28 am (UTC)
Do you have an example of such elaborate project that was created by a mentally sick person?

How frequent is "sometimes"?
In particular, what percentage of mentally sick people create such elaborate projects?
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 12:01 pm (UTC)
Healthy brain vs Suicide
Thank - that's a good perspective on how un-normal people make serious contributions to our society.
However these people listed were not really sick. Just not normal.
They did not attempt suicide.

Here's from "Suicide & Success" discussion on Quora:
========
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-successful-people-commit-suicide
suicide, excluding martyrdom and other corner cases, is almost exclusively associated with severe depression, and not with other forms of suffering (emotional, physical, or otherwise). The healthy mind can endure almost any form of suffering, even severe and chronic suffering
========

Note, that "The healthy mind can endure almost any form of suffering". And typical high school bulling is not even causing a severe suffering.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 04:48 pm (UTC)
Top 10 Scientists who Committed Suicide
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 07:19 pm (UTC)
Re: Top 10 Scientists who Committed Suicide
1) These scientists did not create anything significant (elaborate) while they were preparing for suicide.
They made their scientific contributions while they were in good mental health and killed themselves only years later.
2) Most of these scientists killed themselves for the reasons other than bullying.
Sleepy Hollowlauerz on May 7th, 2017 08:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Top 10 Scientists who Committed Suicide
"2) Most of these scientists killed themselves for the reasons other than bullying." - I guess we simply don't know - we don't have enough data to make a conclusion - about kids who killed themselves while being teenagers. Maybe they had a potential to become someone famous and significant for mankind, or maybe not. They died when they were too young, so we don't know, how important they could have become.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 7th, 2017 08:45 pm (UTC)
Re: Top 10 Scientists who Committed Suicide
> Maybe they had a potential to become

My point is that ability to create something significant, such as 5+ hours of recorded stories with tapes - does not match with the suicidal pattern.
That was not realistic in "13 Reasons Why".
May be Hanna would grow up and create something significant, but at he suicidal state she was very unlikely to do that.
Yaturkenzhensirhiv - a handheld spyyatur on May 8th, 2017 02:41 am (UTC)
> Not only characters were stupid, they were inconsistently stupid: smart in some situations and stupid in others.

That's how people usually are.

I did not watch the show though.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 8th, 2017 02:59 am (UTC)
The spread between being smart and being stupid is almost never that big. (At least not consistently)
Smart person may make a suboptimal decision, but it almost never would be stupid.
Stupid person may occasionally make a reasonable decision, but it would not be something that is outstandingly smart.