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18 April 2015 @ 05:41 pm
Is it good to lie to children?  
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http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html
Adults lie constantly to kids.
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One of the most remarkable things about the way we lie to kids is how broad the conspiracy is.
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If you ask adults why they lie to kids, the most common reason they give is to protect them.
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As the roast turkey appeared on the table, his alarmingly perceptive 5 year old son suddenly asked if the turkey had wanted to die. Foreseeing disaster, my friend and his wife rapidly improvised: yes, the turkey had wanted to die, and in fact had lived its whole life with the aim of being their Thanksgiving dinner. And that (phew) was the end of that.

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We arrive at adulthood with a kind of truth debt. We were told a lot of lies to get us (and our parents) through our childhood. Some may have been necessary. Some probably weren't. But we all arrive at adulthood with heads full of lies.

There's never a point where the adults sit you down and explain all the lies they told you. They've forgotten most of them. So if you're going to clear these lies out of your head, you're going to have to do it yourself.

Few do. Most people go through life with bits of packing material adhering to their minds and never know it. You probably never can completely undo the effects of lies you were told as a kid, but it's worth trying. I've found that whenever I've been able to undo a lie I was told, a lot of other things fell into place.

Fortunately, once you arrive at adulthood you get a valuable new resource you can use to figure out what lies you were told. You're now one of the liars. You get to watch behind the scenes as adults spin the world for the next generation of kids.

The first step in clearing your head is to realize how far you are from a neutral observer. When I left high school I was, I thought, a complete skeptic. I'd realized high school was crap. I thought I was ready to question everything I knew. But among the many other things I was ignorant of was how much debris there already was in my head. It's not enough to consider your mind a blank slate. You have to consciously erase it.
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Ильяygam on April 18th, 2015 10:18 pm (UTC)
У меня есть любимая история.

Когда моей дочке было 8 лет, моя жена по какой-то причине стала читать вслух "Зима! Крестьянин торжествует" Пушкина. Я продолжил: "Христос воскрес, моя Ревекка" того же поэта, так как стихотворный размер один и тот же. Моя жена стала меня ругать за то, что я такие стихи читаю при ребенке. Я стал оправдываться: мол, она их не понимает. Дочка: "I understand everything." - Ну, и чем можно верного еврея от православных отличить? "God." - Правильно: христиане верят в то, что Иисус был Богом, а евреи в это не верят.

Edited at 2015-04-18 10:24 pm (UTC)
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on April 18th, 2015 10:39 pm (UTC)
> Правильно: христиане верят в то, что Иисус был Богом, а евреи в это не верят.

Это такой пример маленькой хитрости родителей?

В том смысле, что Путин, на самом деле, имел ввиду физическое отличие?
(no subject) - ygam on April 18th, 2015 10:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 12:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - anspa on April 19th, 2015 08:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
журнал закрытjuan_gandhi on April 18th, 2015 10:35 pm (UTC)
Я на самом деле с отвращением и презрением смотрю на родителей, которые врут своим детям. Видел много этого добра. Это ужасно.

Мне в детстве никто не врал (просто говорили, что мне рано это знать), и я своим не врал, язык бы не повернулся. Это же нечестно; дети всему верят.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on April 18th, 2015 10:44 pm (UTC)
Враньё же разное бывает. Можно формально и не соврать, но всё равно сильно исказить реальность.
Например оттуда же:
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The famous scientists I remember were Einstein, Marie Curie, and George Washington Carver. Einstein was a big deal because his work led to the atom bomb. Marie Curie was involved with X-rays. But I was mystified about Carver. He seemed to have done stuff with peanuts.
It's obvious now that he was on the list because he was black (and for that matter that Marie Curie was on it because she was a woman)
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Причём иногда искажения неизбежны ради упрощения модели мира.

Эссе, кстати, не только про детей.
Взрослым тоже врут очень много и лапшу с ушей приходится снимать постоянно.
(no subject) - ygam on April 18th, 2015 10:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Биологalleukemist on April 19th, 2015 12:32 am (UTC)
А что может быть рано знать?
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 12:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 19th, 2015 02:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 20th, 2015 04:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - juan_gandhi on April 19th, 2015 01:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 01:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 20th, 2015 04:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 20th, 2015 11:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 20th, 2015 02:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 19th, 2015 02:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 05:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 05:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 07:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 20th, 2015 04:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - juan_gandhi on April 19th, 2015 04:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ygam on April 19th, 2015 04:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 20th, 2015 04:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Биологalleukemist on April 19th, 2015 12:30 am (UTC)
That's why I try hard not to lie to my son, ever, although I can lie to an adult.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 12:34 am (UTC)
I'm missing your line of reasoning here.

How did you derive from these quotes that it's not ok to lie to your son, but it is ok to lie to an adult?
Anatoli Dontsovlamantyn on April 19th, 2015 01:54 am (UTC)
Вероятно имеется ввиду чужие взрослые.
Супруге/супругу тоже [обычно] не врут.
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 19th, 2015 02:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Биологalleukemist on April 19th, 2015 02:15 am (UTC)
I thought you remembered what we talked about in my journal before.
In general, an adult will not have a significantly distorted picture of the world because you lied, but a kid may.
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 04:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 20th, 2015 04:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
fatofffatoff on April 19th, 2015 05:25 pm (UTC)
Естественно, ложь - это функция интеллекта. :) Примитивные животные не врут, а обезьяны уже пытаются обманывать, исследователи подтвердили. Ну, а человек, он ещё и понимает, и рассуждает про ложь. Ещё более высокая функция распознование лжи, как таковой, и белой-во благо, чёрной-во вред лжи. Если ребёнка полностью оградить от такого развития с распознаванием лжи, жить ему будет трудно. Наоборот, надо развивать. :)

Edited at 2015-04-19 05:26 pm (UTC)
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 05:57 pm (UTC)
Развивать надо от простого к сложному, с коротким циклом распознавания лжи (секунды, минуты, часы и крайне редко больше), а не ложью, длящейся десятилетиями (так ничему не научишься).
(no subject) - fatoff on April 19th, 2015 05:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 06:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Clean and soberanspa on April 19th, 2015 08:11 pm (UTC)
Любое морализаторство глупо без контекста.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on April 19th, 2015 10:48 pm (UTC)
Вообще-то статья напичкана примерами.
(no subject) - anspa on April 20th, 2015 12:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 20th, 2015 10:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alleukemist on April 20th, 2015 04:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dennisgorelik on April 20th, 2015 05:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
someoneesl on May 20th, 2015 10:33 pm (UTC)
Why would anyone lie about a roasted turkey to a 5 year old? I'm just curious. When I was 5 year old I saw how our neighbors slaughtered a pig with a knife (I watched it through a hole in the fence). I remember that I was aware why it was done, and it seemed acceptable to me.
Dennis Gorelikdennisgorelik on May 21st, 2015 12:29 am (UTC)
Some parents want to "protect" their kids from the cruelty of our world.